Curse

Rieselle · Aug 05, 2005, 06:23 AM // 06:23

I'm still pessimistic at the notion that it requires a large number of unlocks to play pvp. And I'm annoyed that there are guilds (mine included, a little) that are holding off on pvp because they are too busy farming.

The way I see it, at the rate I'm going, I'll probably have all the unlocks in a few months, let's say halfway between now and the release of the expansion pack next year. So does that mean, if I stick with it till then, I'll be playing the "perfect" guildwars, whilst all those people who got bored and left will be missing out? I dunno. If faction rates were increased like people suggest, I'd probably have everything by now. I'm not sure how that would affect the rest of my playing time. Maybe good, maybe bad. (I also enjoy pve.)

I think mostly people are annoyed at having less skills than their competition - it becomes a race to neutralise some percieved disadvantage before actually playing.

Perhaps the solution is to tier the arenas, tombs, and gvg. Not on some easily smurfable ladder, but on "Average Percentage Unlocked Per Team Member - 20%, 40% and 70%".

That way beginning players on their first character can make a template character and play team arena/HOH and not get instantly destroyed by some coordinated team build. (or going to Ascalon and getting destroyed by some people in Droknar's armour..)

And super-farming-rushers-unlocked everything already can play against each other. And everyone gets their level playing field.

And we'd preserve the steady drip of goodies to keep people interested in the game.

Unless, of course, ANet are planning to continue adding free goodies before the expansion. In which case faster unlocking is ok.

Guild-Hall Messenger · Aug 05, 2005, 03:45 PM // 15:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rieselle

I'm still pessimistic at the notion that it requires a large number of unlocks to play pvp. And I'm annoyed that there are guilds (mine included, a little) that are holding off on pvp because they are too busy farming.

The way I see it, at the rate I'm going, I'll probably have all the unlocks in a few months, let's say halfway between now and the release of the expansion pack next year. So does that mean, if I stick with it till then, I'll be playing the "perfect" guildwars, whilst all those people who got bored and left will be missing out? I dunno. If faction rates were increased like people suggest, I'd probably have everything by now. I'm not sure how that would affect the rest of my playing time. Maybe good, maybe bad. (I also enjoy pve.)

I think mostly people are annoyed at having less skills than their competition - it becomes a race to neutralise some percieved disadvantage before actually playing.

Perhaps the solution is to tier the arenas, tombs, and gvg. Not on some easily smurfable ladder, but on "Average Percentage Unlocked Per Team Member - 20%, 40% and 70%".

That way beginning players on their first character can make a template character and play team arena/HOH and not get instantly destroyed by some coordinated team build. (or going to Ascalon and getting destroyed by some people in Droknar's armour..)

And super-farming-rushers-unlocked everything already can play against each other. And everyone gets their level playing field.

And we'd preserve the steady drip of goodies to keep people interested in the game.

Unless, of course, ANet are planning to continue adding free goodies before the expansion. In which case faster unlocking is ok.

one.

the 50%+ categories willl be empty

two

this doesnt really solve anything

three

it has been proven the system sucks for pvp, check www.guild-hall.net

next

PVP unlocks in GW cant be compared to BF2, BF2 the matches and top competition wont be playing with unlocks, they will have a fair setting.

Also BF2 unlocks dont give you an advantage most of them suck, its like unlocking a second flare that does 3 less damage but has a slightly different animation. The stuff we complain about is completely game breaking.

Louis Ste Colombe · Aug 05, 2005, 04:31 PM // 16:31

What about playing BF2?

You may have some points, but I really can't stand the kind of blackmail you just post. This is getting silly, way out of proportion and definitly immature from your part. With that kind of behaviour, I really start to wonder why A Net picked you as a tester to start with.

I sure hope A. Net will know better than screwing this game up because of you.

Louis,

anow · Aug 14, 2005, 01:39 AM // 01:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guild-Hall Messenger

Increase the ammount of skills on vendors and include 80% of elites on vendors. So we can actually choose what build we want in PVE at early stages of the game and be unique.

I would also call for an END to spirit spamming and FERTILE SEASON stacking with Ritual's health.

The game was originaly made to be PvE and then PvP once you beat the game and/or got bored. Anet is right about PvP being a "Minority" Go to 3 major mission towns and notice how many people are there then notice how many people are in PvP areas. PvE is obviously more in demand.

Why ruin the fun of making most of the skills available in the first few citys . You need some motivation to go and finish the game and putting in elites in merchants delete the purpose of having them be elites other than the fact that you can only have one.

Aniewiel · Aug 14, 2005, 01:41 AM // 01:41

Aug 14, 2005, 02:19 AM // 02:19

hmmm I have that same pic...

Aniewiel · Aug 14, 2005, 03:24 AM // 03:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

hmmm I have that same pic...

But it's such a GOOD one for those blast from the past posts.

=HT=Ingram · Aug 14, 2005, 03:44 AM // 03:44

Actually we have not even got through the 2nd season on the game yet. Not even equinox yet. (IE faction update was around the last seasons equinox)

Sorry date from a day or two ago, but you get my drift...

Anyway... There is a larger problem in PvP. unless you are ranked 3 or higher. forget about it. No one will invite you at all... they make you do a /rank command and unless you have a rank 3 or higher your out. This is sooo Wrong in SOOO many way. its as bad as racism with other countries joining parties...

In effect No one except the high ranked people want to play in tombs PvP... Because they made it a lockout elitist group, just for them. Fine. that's just great. drive away more people from another aspect of the game. is it any wonder the PvE community doesn't want anything to do with you PvPers normally. and are sick of hearing you bitch about stuff that for PvE players is rather easy to deal with. Because Gee. they have gold and Gee the buy and capture stuff all the time... Without crying about a UAS UAR button? We have SOOO moved past that now, and there is no pleasing some people no matter How easy Anet makes it for you to unlock new skills... IE Faction... So if you are going to leave, great no loss... maybe your elitist club will break down and regular players will be able to play PvP again in the future...

ExDeity · Aug 14, 2005, 05:03 AM // 05:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ilya Khan

How many topics like this have you made? I'm just curious...
Because every time I look here, I see a post by you that is closed within an hour or two and you seem to really want to annoy the admins here. Your lucky they have such great patience because if it were up to me, I would have banned you a while ago.

Now onto the topic discussed.

Your suggestion to find a way to stop spirit spamming is simple. THINK!
My guild and I have come up with a pretty simple, though overlooked, build that destroys those who simply spirit spam when on the HoH. It is also versatile enough to compete in the other types in Tombs. Fertile Season + ritual is not overpowered. If I must, I will post this build in the Campfire on Friday just to see if we can get the spirit spammers to stop.

Secondly, I agree that faction must be increased or the cost decreased.

"I believe PVP is for everyone, I believe A.Net Promised a game that rewarded skill not timespent."
People exaggerate. Welcome to the real world.

"Increase the ammount of skill points PVE characters get so they can compete with more available skills and make use of secondary switches."

Perhaps lower the exp requirement to 10k / skillpoint?

This is the most initiating flame I have ever seen posted towards a harmless topic.. Wow.

For absolutely no reason at all, you accuse him of starting trouble, just because his threads are locked?

Are threads locked because of Original Posters a majority of the time? From my experiece on forums for the last few years, that is very rarely the case.

KuTeBaka · Aug 14, 2005, 07:24 AM // 07:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by ExDeity

This is the most initiating flame I have ever seen posted towards a harmless topic.. Wow.

For absolutely no reason at all, you accuse him of starting trouble, just because his threads are locked?

Are threads locked because of Original Posters a majority of the time? From my experiece on forums for the last few years, that is very rarely the case.

have you looked thought GHMs posts? almost every single thread is locked and he even had a thread critizizing the mods.

Divinitys Creature · Aug 15, 2005, 03:09 AM // 03:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by KuTeBaka

have you looked thought GHMs posts? almost every single thread is locked and he even had a thread critizizing the mods.

Just FYI. These topics tend to be controversial. They are openly discussed on The Guild Hall Forums and are not closed down unless they really need to be. The name "Guild Hall Messenger" alludes to this. His posts mirror some of the more active threads/issues discussed there. There tends to be less discussion of those topics here at GWGuru.

I think more inter-forum communications might be a good thing.

KuTeBaka · Aug 15, 2005, 03:51 AM // 03:51

well, between him threatining to quit if anet didn't magicly fix the game in 5 days, or that post about anet being able to fix everything in less than 2 hours, and recreating a topic that was locked because he was flaming too much, and being banned from TGH forums, I wouldnt say that it is only because the topic is controlversial

the dragon king · Aug 15, 2005, 04:30 AM // 04:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arturo02

I just thought of something else.

If these top guilds were around for so long why haven't they unlocked what they needed to at this point? Zeru said they have 'year(s) of experience and information', so why are they the ones who want UAS? They should have unlocked what they needed by this point.

The only thing UAS helps are people who are new to GW or haven't unlocked anything. New as in recruits for a guild. Can get someone up to speed very quickly if they have UAS.

no see this is the idiocy of people of course they have everything unlocked but thats not the point
the point is
THEY HAVE NO COMPETION OTHER GUILDS CANT GET ALL THE SKILLS
they are alone they have nothing to compete with all the other guilds got l3itch slapped by arena net

im sick of this shit im leaving

dargon · Aug 15, 2005, 05:35 AM // 05:35

don't let the door hit ya

varyag · Aug 15, 2005, 06:45 AM // 06:45

Quote:

no see this is the idiocy of people of course they have everything unlocked but thats not the point
the point is
THEY HAVE NO COMPETION OTHER GUILDS CANT GET ALL THE SKILLS
they are alone they have nothing to compete with all the other guilds got l3itch slapped by arena net
im sick of this shit im leaving

Quote:

Originally Posted by dargon

don't let the door hit ya

end yourself, dargon. griefers like you are the worst. all you want is to turn GuildWars into a no-fee World of Warcraft. =(

Alex Weekes · Aug 15, 2005, 01:52 PM // 13:52

To start with, I'd like to apologise for the "vocal minority" comment I made at TGH ... it was a poor choice of words and not reflective of what I intended. With that said, let's move on:

We're testing a variety of adjustments to the game currently, in addition to working on getting Sorrow's Furnace ready for release. Furnace is going to be great for those who enjoy a bit of PvE. For the PvP players out there, however, we're also testing a range of changes targeted at addressing some of the feedback we've been provided by both testers and players on the fan forums.

We're testing skill balance adjustments. We're testing accelerated means of character and account advancement for both RP and PvP characters. When we introduced Faction, we introduced an adjustable framework. Our initial goal was for Faction to be able to advance a PvP character at a roughly similar rate as an RP character. This gave you a choice for character advancement. Now we're committed to improving the rate of advancement for all characters, regardless of whether they are an RP or PvP character.

You've asked for it, and we're going to make changes. I know there's many of you who feel that it's taking too long. I just want to reassure you all that we're making progress towards what you want. It's progress that will bring improvements for all players who want to PvP, and that's why it's taking a little time.

RTSFirebat · Aug 15, 2005, 02:43 PM // 14:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex Weekes

You've asked for it, and we're going to make changes. I know there's many of you who feel that it's taking too long. I just want to reassure you all that we're making progress towards what you want. It's progress that will bring improvements for all players who want to PvP, and that's why it's taking a little time.

Thank you for the reply Alex, as a PvE and PvP, I highly welcome changes which benefit both parties, not just one or the other.

On another point guys, programming is not a 5 minute join, and I think Alex is more or less saying the "Rome wasn't build in a day".

And adding new PvP doesn't happen in a day as well.

Look forward to seeing the planned changed when they come.

Divinitys Creature · Aug 15, 2005, 06:46 PM // 18:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex Weekes

To start with, I'd like to apologise for the "vocal minority" comment I made at TGH ... it was a poor choice of words and not reflective of what I intended. With that said, let's move on:

We're testing a variety of adjustments to the game currently, in addition to working on getting Sorrow's Furnace ready for release. Furnace is going to be great for those who enjoy a bit of PvE. For the PvP players out there, however, we're also testing a range of changes targeted at addressing some of the feedback we've been provided by both testers and players on the fan forums.

We're testing skill balance adjustments. We're testing accelerated means of character and account advancement for both RP and PvP characters. When we introduced Faction, we introduced an adjustable framework. Our initial goal was for Faction to be able to advance a PvP character at a roughly similar rate as an RP character. This gave you a choice for character advancement. Now we're committed to improving the rate of advancement for all characters, regardless of whether they are an RP or PvP character.

You've asked for it, and we're going to make changes. I know there's many of you who feel that it's taking too long. I just want to reassure you all that we're making progress towards what you want. It's progress that will bring improvements for all players who want to PvP, and that's why it's taking a little time.

Thanks for apologising Alex - I think you realised now how much that upset us. I don't know how many people will take this at face value since it's been a while since you said that and the uproar it caused. But I'm willing to give you the benefit of doubt. Please fix the faction as suggested by the link in my sig.

www.guildkarma.com
Fix Faction with a reasonable rate ANET **PLEASE**

GhostPoet · Aug 15, 2005, 06:50 PM // 18:50

I'm not even really interested in the PVP aspect.

I mean..until they add something like Castle or Fort Sieges and varities of that type..I don't think us the casual player find much interest in it...

Makani · Aug 15, 2005, 07:34 PM // 19:34

Thanks for your post Alex. I am glad to hear that you guys are going to deal with the RP and PvP simultaneously. Im sure you guys have already thought of this, but should we implement the things that we have requested, we may have the problem of people hogging the arenas for faction.

We all understand the problems with farming, and know why ANet has nurfed it. However, although PvE farming is dead, ANet initiated a new kind of farming: Faction Farming. How often have we wondered what would happen if our demands for 32x faction were met? If we significantly increase the faction, the uber players will begin to hog the arenas and even the above-average player will have lots of difficulty winning games. This will result in increased annoyance, unsatisfaction and anger at the majority of the people that attempt the arenas. This may eventually lead to people getting bored and quitting the game. Just as tombs has been adversly affected today by spirit spammers, arenas will also be ruined by faction hoggers.

How many times have we thought about that aspect of increasing faction? Sure it will induce competitive play for a while between the few uber players, but the majority of normal players will lose too much to be happy. As mature players of the game, it is important that we understand such issues before attempting to solve our issues.

As I am not one of the game designers it is impossible for me to see the whole picture, so in the end the numbers must be determined by the game designers, but I will make a solemn attempt at finding a good solution:

1) I know many of us will not play the entire PvE again (especially me, though i LOVED it), but let us be a little selfless for a bit. I sincerely believe that the ideal solution is the very way ANet wants it to be: through PvE. PvE should be designed such that in the very first-time-through, one should unlock almost everything, for all professions and for every kind of thing. No 2 items found should be the same. Infact, I would design it such that if one has the patience to play the game for the third time through, one should be guaranteed to unlock every possible thing in the game (first time more than second, second more than third, but by third all is done). So ANet has been thinking along the right lines (i.e things should be unlocked in the most fun way possible) but with one serious problem: The had not realized that we need to have EVERY SINGLE thing unlocked, because PvEers today, will be GvGers tomorrow, and as they should have learned by now, GvGers need everything unlocked.

2) The only viable way for farming skills or runes will become faction should we increase it. This will force everyone to hog this method, and many people who would literally enjoy PvE farming more (since it is less tense and easier because they dont HAVE to win) would be at a major disadvantage. Thus, PvE farming should be improved. There HAS to be balance between PvP farming and PvE farming, and currently it is already towards PvP farming, and if faction is made 32x (or 16x whatever) it will be infinately towards PvP farming. We need to diversify the farmers so that they dont hog any one method, because farmers there always will be.

3) But many of us will not play PvE again so 1 doesnt work for ppl like me. And 2 aggrevates the very problem we have wanted to reduce since game inception. Thus we now need to find a solution for the more mature players, without forcing them to faction farm. This is a very difficult problem and is what everyone has been debating on, however we must try and solve it with the aforementioned issues in mind, and try to have a broader picture of what the game is intended to be, and how our solutions affect that goal and ALL the people that play it. Thus we need to increase unlock rate without inducing farming and keeping the game as fun as possible:

a) Skill Points:
Skill Point acquisition is a function of XP. But we must not forget that level-up rate is also a function of xp. Thus if we amend xp acquisition, we are bound to affect level-up rate, which btw I believe is perfect right now. Thus we cannot change the xp, and I propose we leave everything as it is, except one thing. Skill Points are only obtained at level 20. Thus we can simply reduce the xp requirement at level 20. My suggestion would be that we make skill point acquisition 3 to 4 times faster, thus level cap should be between 5000 to 7000 instead of the current 20000. Do remember that PvP wins give XP too, but I would not change that as I think this will help balance the skill-point acquisition rate with faction-acquisition rate when we increase faction-rate. Balance is good.

b) Faction:
Faction definately needs to be increased. My suggestion is 4x, though I do think even that is high considering the fact that we are increase skill point acquisition. Actually, 4x is probably still enough to make me want to farm team arenas (last time i did 61 undefeated, during which I hogged ta for a couple of hours). Nevertheless, I think 4x is good because we are going to add a third dimension to lure the uber players away towards more fun competitive play instead of faction farming.

c) Advanced Competitive Play
This is the third dimension. We need a way to drastically increase unlocking rate for the elite people in the game who need to instantly randomly try different gvg builds, yet avoiding any form of grind (even faction farming). We need a way to kick the high-ranking guilds back into action with advanced competitive play.

i) Ladder (current system)
The amount of faction received from GvG needs to be increased significantly. Instead of 200-500, we should make it 500-2000 per win, where the higher the rank you defeat, the more the faction each person in the party gets.

ii) Leagues
These will be large tournaments where a team is not immediately eliminated on a loss, so that they have another go at attaining the high faction received for each win in here. Kind of like a Fifa League, so in the initial part of the leage each win gives perhaps 1000 faction and when you enter playoffs near end you could receive something like 5000 faction per person in team for a victory.

iii) Smaller tournaments or any official competitive play
Any kind of official competition should basically have a significantly increased amount of faction.

We must also remember that one must still need to put in a bit of work to achieve things. So giving infinite faction for a win beats the whole experience ANet has been trying to develop. Faction can infact be a strong motivation factor for winning games, but if everyone already has every skill, then that kind of drive will not be there and a decreased sense of reward for a victory.

Thank you Alex for a wonderful game so far and for listening to our suggestions.

Makani Blade